Offer suggestions here

[djbell]

Just a note regarding Da Vinci Code mentioned above. It's based on a work of non-fiction called:

Holy Blood Holy Grail by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, Henry Lincoln

I have no idea how much of it was true-- I don't believe much of it except that maybe they unearthed some cool cults-- but it's a damned fun read. We know that Brown used this as a main source because one of the character's names is an anagram for Baigent. Apparently people who have read Holy Blood usually get bored by Da Vinci Code.

Or if you like the same work as the former in video game form, I recommend Gabriel Knight III, with Tim Curry as the title role. Kind-of wacky speculative conclusion but it's cool to pretend to discover what Baigent supposedly discovered.


Also I'd like to ring in as a HUGE Karen Armstrong fan. I think she's the only writer who seems genuinely myth-neutral, expresses her opinions fairly transparently, and notes all of her sources exceedingly well. History of God, Islam, Holy War, Battle for God, all rock the house.

[Jephix]

Hello.

I would like to bring everyone's attention to a very obscure and little-known, but extremely informative and revealing book called "The Urantia Book"

You can visit
http://www.urantia.org/papers/index.html
to read the entire book for free online, but I would suggest also http://www.urantiabook.org/urantiabook/topical_index/
for a topical index of the entire work, because it is 2,097 pages, and
contains a great deal of information on a wide range of subjects.

For a visual tour of some of the concepts in the book, visit
http://www.austinproject.net

The reason I am suggesting this book is because I think it is one of
the best sources of information regarding "The Life and Teachings of Jesus", giving detailed information far in excess of all known material about him... 700+ pages actually, it's the last third of the Urantia Book, but technically "Part 4".

And also because it has a wealth of information pertaining to other related topics that every human will find an interest in somewhere, like history, philosophy, science, cosmology, religion, god, etc.etc... And all in a very structured and highly intellectually stimulating package.

Seriously, I'm not a crack-job fundamentalist book-thumper. I studied all sorts of books, scientific, historical, philosophical, etc etc... and no book I've ever read besides this book has synthesized all those fields so perfectly. I will definitely admit that I am a believer in the information this book provides, and that I believe it because it correlates so well with what I've already studied, but also because I choose to. Please understand though that it is not where this book came from or who wrote it that is important (although within it's pages it gives full description and listing as to who authored it's information), but rather that it's words hold such a high caliber of truth and reason and logic and intellect, science and philosophically deep understanding, historically accurate information and beautifully written narratives of events and even discussions on topics pertaining to absolutes and infinities, etc... but really, if you're up to it, dig in and see what it says about a particular subject of interest... you may just be surprised at what you find.

That's all, thanks.

[Bunyips brother]

I have read the urantia book.Studied it for 2 years.1998 - 2000

It is helpful in relation to freeing yourself from religion.

It did assist me in becoming a non Christian.

The urantia book bottom line.

Jesus was not crucified for the sins of all men.

Jesus is The Arc Angel Michael. (chemical) Book supplied by ex 7 day Adventist's

This planet (urantia) is an experimental planet.

Church and state should not be separated.

Upon death the subject (personality) is asked whether or not they wish to go on.Go on pertains to being re born on a mansion planet.In a more advanced body.If the subject desires not to go on.That personality . Then ceases to exist

This book is just another attempt at re inventing Jesus all over again.

The science in this book is at error.

Mostly the urantia book is copied from many other books.

paper 90
is worth a read
http://www.urantia.org/papers/paper90.html

The mystics and the new agers will love this book.

This book is dangerous to those who have a weak religious mind.

Christians do not like this book.see
http://www.letusreason.org/Cults17.htm

Be very careful of what you read and what you believe.Because your sub conscious will delivery all sorts of strange events to your reality.The truth that you seek .

Just another 2000 pages and yet another religious book that will waste your time away.

[Jephix]

Bunyips Brother: I have read the urantia book.Studied it for 2 years.1998 - 2000

Jephix: Have you read the whole book cover to cover, or just studied portions of it during those 2 years?


Bunyips Brother: It is helpful in relation to freeing yourself from religion.

Jephix: I will start replying in cases like this by first re-stating your question to avoid confusion over what are your opinions, or your experiences with the book, and what are generalizations and such...

So you're saying that in your opinion/experience the book was helpful to free yourself from "religion". In what way are you using the word "religion" though? Do you mean the "evolutionary" religions and religious institutions of our world, or do you mean the "religion of human experience" that the book describes as the only "true" religion?

Please explain what you mean there, I'm interested to know and understand more about the perspective of a former student of The Urantia Book and its teachings.


Bunyips Brother: It did assist me in becoming a non Christian.

Jephix: What is it specifically you are saying defines you as a "non-Christian"? There are so many different sub-sects of "Christianity", and you might recall from the Urantia Book (and this is entirely logical) that ALL the religions spawned by the followers of Jesus Christ are more "about" Jesus the person, than they are "of" the actual teachings Jesus gave. So are you defining yourself as a non-"christianity" person, or a non-"christ and all his teachings" person?


Bunyips Brother: The urantia book bottom line.

Jephix: Uh oh, I love it when people try to summarize the Urantia Book in a few short lines. I admit that I tried to generalize what it's about in my post, but I tried not to touch on details that would be taken out-of-context, and also to phrase these statements in the light of them being my own interpretation and opinion.

Restatement: This is (Bunyips Brother's opinion) of the "bottom line" of The Urantia Book.


Bunyips Brother: Jesus was not crucified for the sins of all men.

Jephix: This topic is discussed at great length, but the book does state this as a fact, that Jesus was killed by the free will actions of men. God did not send Jesus here for some sacrificial purpose to die. And not for any "grudge" or other sad human-like emotions attributed to God.


Bunyips Brother: Jesus is The Arc Angel Michael. (chemical) Book supplied by ex 7 day Adventist's

Jephix: This is a wierd sentence. First off, no the Urantia Book does not state that "Jesus is The Archangel Michael." The Urantia Book does reveal that the being who incarnated and became "Jesus of Nazareth" was and is a high divine being whose english name would be "Michael of Nebadon". But this being is not an "Archangel", although there may obviously be an archangel named Michael, but there are countless Archangels, so Michael could be a common name among them. But are you referring that when "scripture" refers to the Archangel Michael, that they are talking about this "Michael of Nebadon" who also became Jesus? I have not studied scripture to know how instances of discussion about Archangel Michael may line up with information about Michael of Nebadon from The Urantia Book, so I wouldn't jump to the conclusion of saying they are one in the same being... there may well have been contact from an Archangel named Michael by persons who wrote such stories, or they could have been contacts with the actual Michael of Nebadon... next you say "(chemical)"... what is that in reference to? Is this a typo? Next you say "Book supplied by ex 7th Day Adventists"... This would only work out as an accurate statement if you really mean that a few people who, in their past among many other more notable things, were 7th Day Adventists, and they helped in the creation of The Urantia Book.



Bunyips Brother: This planet (urantia) is an experimental planet.

Jephix: Ok, a detail that is way out-of-context, but relevant somewhat, still this is not a major theme in The Urantia Book. Atleast you are mentioning that the name "Urantia" is the english translation of the name for our planet in the government of the universe at large. But every 10th "inhabitable" planet is also an "experimental" planet.


Bunyips Brother: Church and state should not be separated.

Jephix: Whoa, are you sure you read the book?? This is completely contradictory to what The Urantia Book DOES say... here is a quick quote to be sure, this is from page 784, "One of the great peace moves of the ages has been the attempt to separate church and state."

And here is another example where they specifically state that the "Union of Church and State" should be PREVENTED... as in they SHOULD be separated.
Page 798
"If men would maintain their freedom, they must, after having chosen their charter of liberty, provide for its wise, intelligent, and fearless interpretation to the end that there may be prevented:
1. Usurpation of unwarranted power by either the executive or legislative branches.
2. Machinations of ignorant and superstitious agitators.
3. Retardation of scientific progress.
4. Stalemate of the dominance of mediocrity.
5. Domination by vicious minorities.
6. Control by ambitious and clever would-be dictators.
7. Disastrous disruption of panics.
8. Exploitation by the unscrupulous.
9. Taxation enslavement of the citizenry by the state.
10. Failure of social and economic fairness.
11. Union of church and state.
12. Loss of personal liberty."

That states pretty clearly some things we should prevent... and they all seem very logical and reasonable, if not great ideas.



Bunyips Brother: Upon death the subject (personality) is asked whether or not they wish to go on.Go on pertains to being re born on a mansion planet.In a more advanced body.If the subject desires not to go on.That personality . Then ceases to exist

Jephix: Again, way out of context, and not entirely accurate as to what the book actually states. First off, after death we are "re-born on a mansion planet", acclimate to that new life and yes we are given the ability to make one final, fully conscious choice about whether we wish to "keep going" as a self-conscious person in the universe, but this "keep going" is about the ascent to reach the actual God of all creation at the center of infinity. If we do not choose to gravitate toward God, then basically we are stating that we do not wish to be involved with the only true reality and source of reality there is. So in essence, we have decided to cease from existence... but we are given ample time, space, and wisdom to make that choice, and God actually sends an eternal part of Him/Herself (God has no gender, but is definitely a "personality" we can come to know) to dwell within us, for the purpose of fusing with us if we choose that path of ever-lasting life and growth towards perfection in truth, beauty, and goodness. If we choose not, then yes we eventually lose our self-conscious identity and personality, but nothing of true value is ever lost or destroyed, it is only absorbed into the more over-reaching presence of "experiential deity".


Bunyips Brother: This book is just another attempt at re inventing Jesus all over again.

The science in this book is at error.

Jephix: Wow, you're really letting loose with the opinions and conclusions, the whole time stating these as though they are "fact". The Urantia Book details the very Life and Teachings of Jesus, as much as you can pack into 700 pages... it does way more than simply "re-invent" Jesus, it actually portrays a beautiful human life, even if you think it is a work of "fiction" because you feel you have some "proof" that Jesus did NOT exist, although no one could have "proof" that someone back then in those days DID or DID NOT actually exist. I'd really like you to explain to me how you think you could "prove" that Jesus or anyone else for that matter in those years existed or didn't exist. Anyway, you are flat out wrong when you say "The science in this book is at error." Maybe you haven't studied the hundreds of cases of statements in the book that been shown to time and time again be found in AGREEMENT with present day science. The science of the Urantia Book is actually more in agreement with present day science than it ever has been, and science has to re-evaluate its conclusions all the time anyway. The science in the Urantia Book is entirely logical and sound, and fits perfectly with the big picture of our current scientific era and the rest of history. The few debates over specific details are pointless for many reasons, but the book predicted its scientific statements to some day need additional information to fill in the gaps anyway, and that future students of book (you would be one of them, as the book was published in 1955) would be tempted to disregard the entire work based on their opinions of its science and how "correct" or "at error" they are. Apparently you have done just that, I hope you find whatever it is you think that science is looking for in the first place, and when you do I hope you don't beat yourself up for realizing that thing is synonymous with God. A "Unified Field Theory", or "Theory of Everything" is basically a physical universe exploration of the energy relationships and attributes of God. Please do more research if you think the Urantia Book's science is at error... or state the examples of science you think are wrong.



Bunyips Brother: Mostly the urantia book is copied from many other books.

Jephix: It is meant to be a combination of all valuable human knowledge thought or recorded since the inceptions of mankind on our planet, and in addition there are loads of information that are not found anywhere else on the planet, in any book whatsoever... so it is not "mostly" copied, and it was intended to have many human sources, so we might recognize the concepts more easily.


Bunyips Brother: paper 90
is worth a read
http://www.urantia.org/papers/paper90.html

Jephix: Paper 90 is a small tangent of a paper about ancient early "shamanism" and priests... more about the non-scientific type of shamanism, because a lot of present-day "shamanism" is actually very scientific and developed, and focuses more on healing than on strange practices and trying to be kings or what-not.



Bunyips Brother: The mystics and the new agers will love this book.

Jephix: Actually, "the mystics and the new agers" (huge stereotyping and generalization there), will not all love this book, because it puts down a lot of present day beliefs in superstitions and astrology and other non-scientific approaches to understanding the physical world. There is a big difference in this book between "spiritual" and "spiritualism". Those interested can look it up on the index site I'm sure. This book only appeals to "new age, and mystics" lines of thought because it is a 20th century book, has all sorts of strange stuff surrounding it's authorship, and covers so much new ground in things spiritual, psychological, philosophical, etc..

Bunyips Brother: This book is dangerous to those who have a weak religious mind.

Jephix: Ouch, what kind of low blow to a simple innocent book is that? No books are dangerous, people can be dangerous.. but books are books for one thing. Second, your opinion again, is that this book "is dangerous to those who have a weak religious mind"... whatever THAT is supposed to mean. What do you mean by "weak religous mind"? Please provide details, specifics, examples, if you're going to use statements as vague as that or use new stereotypes like "those who have weak religious minds".

So, what is a "weak religious mind" and what is it that makes something "dangerous" to one?



Bunyips Brother: Christians do not like this book.see
http://www.letusreason.org/Cults17.htm

Jephix: Another sad, over-reaching generalization. I think that on the most part, if all "Christians" were to really read this book in its entirety, that they would love it... there are a lot of people out there who love to attack things they know nothing about other than what other people have said, or who love to focus on anything where there is dis-agreement and dwell on it, and those people are usually the ones who voice their opinions as though they are facts, and do so very bluntly, christianity with its rituals and sacrifices and meetings and buildings etc, is more of a "cult" than The Urantia Book and it's sincere readership.


Bunyips Brother: Be very careful of what you read and what you believe.Because your sub conscious will delivery all sorts of strange events to your reality.The truth that you seek .

Just another 2000 pages and yet another religious book that will waste your time away.

Jephix: Ahh, now the self-exalting part where you must be some expert to notify people to "be very careful of what they read and what they believe", unless ofcourse you weren't generalizing and were talking specifically to me.. in which case you would be even more presumptious and self-exalting as to give me warnings about my OWN choices. Do not presume to be a "parental" figure to people because you think you know what is "safe" for them to read and to believe.

If you've studied enough science you might also know that the field of "consciousness" is extremely new and has a plethora of information streaming in about things both considered "sub-conscious" and also "super-conscious", or "trans-conscious". I've had plenty of experiences with various states of consciousness and, especially when studying The Urantia Book and living a real human life, you learn the difference between "facts" and real genuine personal un-provable but experiential truth. You learn the difference between sub-conscious thoughts, patterns, experiences, etc.. and spiritually significant or super-conscious thoughts, patterns, experiences, and mostly by how they are integrated into one's life, not based on the initial phenomena itself.

With your last statement, you have then taken your post to what started off sounding innocent (I've read the Urantia Book and studied it), to a nasty remark of casting stones at a book that is obviously even intellectually beyond your comprehension, giving no credence to the fact that this was just your opinion and your experience with the book. I sincerely apologize if this book was "just another 2000 pages" (like there are lots of 2000 page books or something?), and was "another religious book that" wasted your time. But I hope you forgive me for disagreeing so strongly with your attitude of warning other people to stay away or ignore this book because of your off-hand opinion-based judgments. I thought you said this book was good to "free yourself from religion" but then at the end you say its "just another religious book"... well which is it? You're contradicting yourself.

Let other people make their own choices, please state your opinions clearly as such, and accept my apologies from the Urantia Book readership that your experience was negative or a waste of your time, but please refrain from attacking an innocent book. This "Urantia" thing is harmless, and has no intention of being a religion, nor is the book a "religious book", it is a book of truth, plain and simple, easily recognizable by any human with a rational philosophical, scientific, and spiritually open-minded foundation.

Sorry if you feel I used a technique of replying to you that is not very kind, but I wanted to give ample voice to each of your comments, and also take some time to clarify the Urantia Book's and my own positions.

Thank you,
Jeff

[Bunyips brother]

G'day Jeff

Can't you find anyone else to talk to you about your book.

Urantia Book
According to The Urantia Book Fellowship (UBF), The Urantia Book (UB) is

an anthology of 196 'papers' indited [i.e., dictated] between 1928 and 1935 by superhuman personalities.... The humans into whose hands the papers were delivered are now deceased. The means by which the papers were materialized was unique and is unknown to any living person.

The UB Fellowship was founded in 1955 as the Urantia Brotherhood and is an association of people who say they have been inspired by the "trans formative teachings" of the UB. According to the UBF, these "superhuman personalities" are from another world. They synthesized the work of more than 1,000 human authors in a variety of fields, including an "astronomical-cosmological organization of the universe" unknown to modern science and an elaborate extension (700 pages) on the life of Jesus. The UB also reveals that the "Universe is literally teeming with inhabited planets, evolving life, civilizations in various states of development, celestial spheres, and spirit personalities." In short, the UB is over 2,000 pages of "revelations" from superhuman beings which "correct" the errors and omissions of the Bible. "Urantia" is the name these alleged super humans gave to our planet. According to these super mortal beings, Earth is the 606th planet in Satania which is in Norlatiadek which is in Nebadon which is in Orvonton which revolves around Havona, all of which revolves around the center of infinity where God dwells.

Martin Gardner is skeptical of the UBF's claims. He believes the UB has very real human authors. Originally, he says, the UB was the "Bible" of a cult of separatist Seventh Day Adventists, allegedly channeled by Wilfred Kellogg and edited by founder William Sadler, a Chicago psychiatrist. According to Gardner, in addition to an array of bizarre claims about planets and names of angels, etc., the Urantia Book contains many Adventist doctrines. Sadler died in 1969 at the age of 94 but his spiritual group lives on. Sadler got his start working for Dr. John Harvey Kellogg, Adventist surgeon, health and diet author, and brother of cornflake king William Keith Kellogg. These are the same Kellogg brothers who were featured and lampooned in the movie "The Road to Wellville."

One can easily understand why Gardner suspects that the UB has human rather than superhuman origins. The book has all the traits of humanity upon it. For example, our human philosophers and theologians are mimicked perfectly in passages such as the following:

The philosophers of the universes postulate a Trinity of Trinities, an existential-experiential Trinity Infinite, but they are not able to envisage its personalization; possibly it would equivalate to the person of the Universal Father on the conceptual level of the I AM. But irrespective of all this, the original Paradise Trinity is potentially infinite since the Universal Father actually is infinite. (Foreword XII, The Trinities)

Any medieval casuist would be proud of such writing and thinking.

Primary supernaphim are the supernal servants of the Deities on the eternal Isle of Paradise. Never have they been known to depart from the paths of light and righteousness. The roll calls are complete; from eternity not one of this magnificent host has been lost. These high supernaphim are perfect beings, supreme in perfection, but they are not absonite, neither are they absolute. (Paper 27)

Some UBFers are attracted not so much to the theology, but to its great insights. Here are a few of those insights culled from paper 100, "Religion in Human Experience." Ask yourself if a superhuman being was necessary to reveal these gems.

The experience of dynamic religious living transforms the mediocre individual into a personality of idealistic power....

Give every developing child a chance to grow his own religious experience....

Religious experience is markedly influenced by physical health, inherited temperament, and social environment....

Spiritual development depends, first, on the maintenance of a living spiritual connection with true spiritual forces....

The goal of human self-realization should be spiritual, not material....

Human likes and dislikes do not determine good and evil; moral values do not grow out of wish fulfillment or emotional frustration....

Jesus was an unusually cheerful person, but he was not a blind and unreasoning optimist....

If the philosophical, theological or spiritual insights do not impress you, then you might want to consider the scientific insights of the UB, such as the resurrection of the pre-Adamite thesis of Isaac de la Peyrère (1596-1676), who felt compelled to believe that the Bible is the history of the Jews, not of all people, and that in order to explain things such as racial differences the most reasonable hypothesis is that races of people existed before Adam and Eve..

Not everyone agrees with Gardner's claim that the Urantia Book was channeled by Wilfred Kellogg. Ernest Moyer, for example, believes that the UB is a revelation from God that appeared "out of thin air" in fully developed form, exactly as we know it today. Moyer claims that Sadler was put through a lengthy process by our "planetary supervisors" in order to prepare him to accept the UB as true revelations. The process began by introducing Sadler to the Sleeping Subject (SS), whose nocturnal ramblings would later be understood to be preparatory messages from extraterrestrial "midwayers." According to Moyer, "SS was a member of the Chicago Board of Trade, a highly pragmatic, hard-nosed business man who did not believe in 'psychic' phenomena or any such nonsense." Why SS was selected for this task is unknown, but Moyer assures us that the midwayers never took over SS's mind and came only at night when SS was unconscious so as not to disrupt his life too much. Moyer contrasts this with the evil spirit who invaded Edgar Cayce during the daytime, a sure sign that Cayce was a false prophet. Sadler was selected, according to Moyer, because of his personality and training.

Moyer is convinced that we are on the verge of a nuclear holocaust and that the UB offers advice on how to save oneself from destruction and what to do afterward. This is all part of God's plan, as revealed to Sadler. According to Moyer, "God is using this technique to screen the human race."

It seems to me that God tried this once before with water instead of nuclear bombs. Well, if at first you don't succeed....

First provide unquestionable proof that jesus existed.
Then provide unquestionable proof that Michael of Nebadon exists then we will continue.

http://www.planetaryhq.com/rebut.htm

http://www.endtimeprophecy.org/Conte.../urantia2.html

http://www.citilink.com/~mjfitz/satan.htm

Some Modicum of Integrity Urantia book
One of the most interesting developments I have watched in this work has been the ego of certain people to grow so large that they are unable to see around it and see the damage they are doing.
http://www.white-knights911.com/comments.htm

Jeff your just another member of the book club.
The Christians have a book.The Muslim's have a book The mormons have a book and now Jeff has a book.

They all say .This is the truth.I know it's the truth.Yet they all disagree.
Have you noticed that religious books cause division as yet.

http://withchrist.org/urantia.htm

The Urantia Book, Urantia Foundation, Urantia Fellowship, and the Urantia three concentric circle symbol above (Banner of Michael) represent a modern-day Arian/Gnostic cult. The group began in Chicago during the early 1930's among high-ranking members of the heretical Seventh Day Adventist1 sect.

Read all of this.
http://www.world-destiny.org/tocp.htm

Especially this
http://www.world-destiny.org/30alter1.html
I now know my position was wrong. I simply was unwilling to admit that Sadler made changes to the Papers after 1935


http://www.world-destiny.org/josherr.html
For example, Mercury has a simple 3/2 synchronicity. It has a sidereal revolution period around the sun of 87.969 days, and a sidereal rotation period of 58.65 days. (Sidereal means reference to a fixed point in the heavens — not reference to the sun or solar system.)

Another example is Venus. We now know that its rotation is clocked with its revolution around the sun such that it always shows us the same face when it comes between the earth and the sun.

Jeff is your thought adjuster';(s) not of the advanced type.?

[Bunyips brother]

Views that others have about the urantia book

http://forums.hypography.com/theolog...ve-hoaxed.html

Contradictions
http://www.world-destiny.org/38cor.htm

As for me

First provide unquestionable proof that jesus existed.
Then provide unquestionable proof that Michael of Nebadon exists then we will continue.

or
When you have 9 million believers.Then give us a call.
Lets assume that you now have. 1 million believers .Thats after 50 years of your book being made available to the public.
So you should have 9 million believers by around 2430+ AD
0r even before 2160 AD
0r
You will at least have to catch up with the Mormons.That should take no longer than 540 years from now.

[Bunyips brother]

Still waiting Jephix.
Are you ready to continue.?
Do you have unquestionable truth of the existence of the urantia jesus or the bible jesus.?

[Kim]

Jesus was not crucified for the sins of all men.

That is correct.

These recent posts are a perfect example of Bunnyips taking things out of context and making 2+2 add up to ten.

Does he have an original or authentic thought? Haven't witnessed it so far he uses other biased sources to back up his beliefs and as we know those with fixed beliefs get stuck on a buoy. Really there is no difference between an athiest fundamentalist and a christian fundamentalist they just wear different hats and both are blinded by their own negativity and personal stance.

A closed mind is a closed heart.

Kim xx

[Vishus]

The God Delusion

by Richard Dawkins

http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-R...4963585&sr=8-1

Why? It's by Richard Dawkins. He's so ferocious when it comes to religion. Nothing totally new since a lot of the big stuff has been posted already on the link, and a lot of other religious sites. I haven't read the whole book, but it's too good to say what I've read (just read excerpts and reviews around the web) and I can't say it any better than other people on this thread.

[Punkish]

Vishus,

Dawkins is no theologian and many atheists have pointed out that his ferocity have put *them* off this book.